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Students competing for bad grades??

MusicTeach

Junior Member
I teach music/band and I am having trouble with my 7-8 band. I have a points system for grading. Each day they start out with ten points (100%). I told them that each day they have a 100%, whether or not they want to keep it is up to them. I take away points for disruption (playing out of turn, talking out of turn, talking back, etc), and disrespect shown towards me or any other student. Lately I have noticed that the students are trying to get their points taken away so see who has the lowest grade at the end of the day. I talked to them about it today at the end of rehearsal, and stressed that fact that is was immature, and that they were only hurting themselves. I told them they needed to grow up! I am hoping that they will get a clue once they see their report cards, I have low C's and in band that is a bad bad grade! I just wanted to know if any of you other teachers have experienced anything like this before?? What you did to help render the problem or solved the issues relating to this kind of poor behavior! I am a first year teacher and I am feeling very confused on this one, any suggestions would help! Thanks, have a happy Thanksgiving!
 
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SC

Senior Member
Middle school behavior

Aren't middle school students a breed of their own? I have had the same thing happen before when I taught 6th and 7th, and it was so annoying.

Now I teach 4th, and I had kids doing the same thing. I told them that to laugh when losing points is disrespect for authority, and that would be automatic detention. That works for 4th grade because they still want to please the teacher and their parents, but I'm not sure what to do about middle school.

Maybe you could make them do chores at school for misbehaving in class. Apparently they don't care about losing points, so make it something a little more time consuming for them. Also, you could reward those who keep their 100%.
 

Miss C

Senior Member
hmmm.....

They're not very bright, are they? I'm kind of with you in feeling that, once report cards go out, they'll mend their ways. You may want to make an effort to contact a few of the parents to let them know what you're observing. I may get flamed for this, but I don't see why it would be wrong to pick out the parents of a few of the social leaders (cheerleaders, football players, you know the type) to call. Once word gets around that you're making phone calls, the behavior will most likely stop. Hope this helps! :)
I taught music (piano, choir, and elementary music - mostly choral) for two years, and it's a HARD thing to teach. The class itself seems to lend itself to disruptive behavior. I feel your pain!
 

dramacentral

Senior Member
grading system

I would not start them off with 100%. It sends the message that they don't have to do anything to earn a good grade, and the only place for them to go with their behavior is down. People generally think that something is worth more when they've had to work for it and earn it.
 

Miller

Senior Member
are you making a scene when they misbehave? They may be doing it purposefully to get a reaction from you.

If they can't behave, have them put their instruments up and write all the major scales. They can't participate for that day. Also, since band took the place of PE, we had to do so many hours of PE, so every Friday we played kickball. If you can have a time for fun, keep those kids out who hav misbehaved for the week.

I would call home or start giving detentions. Or, if their behavior can't improve, take them out of band functions that go against their grade. I was in band, but my parents would have killed me if I got a bad grade in band.
 
M

M.

Guest
Re

I have heard of this happening in middle school. Here are two suggestions:

1. I strongly, strongly feel that band (like so many other things!) is a priviledge, not a right. If a student can not behave in the class and is preventing other students from learning and enjoying the class because of disruptions, he or she should not be allowed in the band. It isn't fair to you nor the other students that the kids who misbehaved are allowed to take band...it's just ruining it for everyone else. I love to sing, and I took choir in middle school/junior high. When high school came around, I dropped choir. I hated doing it, but I did it because I felt like nothing was being accomplished. Over half of the class period was used to get other students to be quiet. That's not right...everyone deserves the right to learn and explore a subject, and the disruptions are direspectful to those who want to learn. I would talk to the principal or your department head to see if it's okay to take band away from someone...I feel that if they don't have the proper behavior, they shouldn't be in there. You could give them the "3 strikes your out" policy. After 3 offenses of misbehavior, the child can no longer participate in band, at least for a certain period of time.

2. Is your middle school teamed? If so, do you know what team these students are on? I would take this issue to the team teachers. Do they also see a problem? Is a confrence needed with the student, the parents, the principal, and all of the student's teachers? What policy does the team use to handle misbehaviors? Can it somehow be used in your band room, so there's some consistency?
 
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MusicTeach

Junior Member
Thank you!

Thank you all so much for your replies they really give me more considerations! I live in a small community so the middle school is not teamed. Grades 7-12 attend the same school. There are two seperate bands one 7-8 and the other 9-12. This leads to a problem, because the eighth graders feel like they should be doing the same things high school does (pep-band, etc). I told them that if we get through our concert music I have on the board and there have been very little disruptions we will play some pep-band. A lot of the pep-band music is still too hard to for them.

I did get a reply about my points system. Would you suggest starting them out with 0 points then with good behavior their points go up??? That is something to consider. I only have about 5 disruptive students in the class. They tend to bring the whole class down with them. When they are gone it is smooth sailing!! I could take them out of the classroom, temporarily, and have them do chores, that is a good idea. I just don't want them to not learn the music, especially since we have a concert in a couple weeks. Ohh....teaching is so hard!! I love it though. Thanks for the replies!
 

dramacentral

Senior Member
Re the points system - at my school we use a points system (tokens for the younger kids) and I've found it's most effective when points are distributed at moderately predictable intervals, with some bonuses thrown in.

Kids always blame you if you take something away from them -- if really pushed they can identify what they did to cause the points to be taken away, but they'll still leave feeling that you're out to get them or that you're unfair.
 

MusicTeach

Junior Member
Points

Do you feel this way about 7-8 graders? I feel that they should be old enough to understand that disruptive behavior with result in lower grades. I do agree that they might feel picked on, but I am fair with taking away points. I feel that 7-8 should have the responsibility of keeping a good grade, which is the same as earning it.
 

dramacentral

Senior Member
I would say that keeping a good grade implies that one has already earned it. Kids should understand that disrupting class results in lower grades, but they should also know exactly what they have to do to earn those grades in the first place. If they walk in the door with 100% already, then all they have to do is either a) be absent from class, so that they don't do anything to screw up their grade, or b) sit there and try not to cause a scene. That isn't really inspiring them to DO anything.

Think about our lives as adults. We don't get paid to just show up and not cause trouble. We earn a salary in exchange for our performance. Imagine a boss saying, "Okay, I'll pay you this salary if you agree to come into work and not disrupt anyone else. Any mistake you make will result in lowering your salary." I'd imagine most folks would fall into two camps - some (many) would accept the situation and be fine with it, since it's easy money. But others would feel insulted, and probably unmotivated to actually do anything, and even bored enough to start thinking of pranks and jokes they could play at work to make life more interesting. Especially if they hated work and didn't want to be there to begin with. Have you ever met someone who WANTED to be fired? That's the situation a lot of our kids are in. They don't particularly want to be in our classes, or in school in general, so the negative consequences don't particularly deter them, especially if there is no incentive to actually try and do well.

A point system is extrinsically motivated reinforcement. You do the right thing because the system gives you some benefit you really want - a good grade, a salary, more positive recognition, whatever. By the same token, to avoid a problem, you'll do things that aren't particularly pleasant, like paying the bills or driving within a reasonable distance of the speed limit, to avoid fines and other unpleasant consequences.

It seems like your system is counting on the kids to be intrinsically motivated - that is, to want to do the right thing, and to have the respect and foresight to avoid the consequences of doing the wrong thing. Yes, middle schoolers would hopefully have this in place - but some don't. That's why you're taking points away in the first place, isn't it? In an effort to communicate that their behavior is unacceptable, and give them a reason to avoid the misbehavior? Taking the points away clearly isn't enough of a deterrent. In fact, they seem to have decided that it's more rewarding to have the points taken away, but have immediate fun and social attention in class.

What would actually motivate these kids to want to behave in class? What can you, as a teacher, give them that their friends can't? You have power over their grades, but they seem to be in a power struggle with you, and are telling you through their actions that it is more important for them to save face and not submit to authority than it is to get the 100% that they haven't really done anything to even earn yet. Maybe they are pretending not to care about their grades because they don't want to be embarrassed in front of their peers. Or maybe they really don't care. So, fine - if they don't care about grades, what do they care about?

This is a tough situation, and this age group isn't easy even if the kids are basically motivated to do well. But if you can crack open even one kid's thinking and figure out how to break the spiral, I bet the situation would improve a lot. Regardless, though, for your more motivated students, I would at least offer an extra credit option - a way to recognize them for their hard work.
 

MusicTeach

Junior Member
to drama central

Thank you very much for your reply. It really did open my eyes to what my students might be thinking. You are right that they are doing it to save face in front of the other students. To tell you the truth I am not exactly sure how to get them motivated or how to get them to care about their grade. I am definately thinking about changing my points system for next semester, but I am not sure exactly how I want to change it. Thank you so much for your insight, it really helped.
 
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